Any Ideas For A New Tour Format?
Over the last 12 months there has been a hell of a lot of discussion about the ASP World Tour and how the formats of the events are run. This year a new event format was brought in at the Rip Curl Pro at Bells Beach and is also being run at the Billabong Pro in Tahiti right now. Not everybody on tour is stoked on the format and I think it is going to come under review.
Having surfed on this tour eight years I have some my own views and ideas on what I think would work best. When I’m trying to think of a format that would suit the tour I’m not thinking about myself personally, I am thinking of all the surfers and what would take the sport to new heights. But rather than rabbit it on about my own ideas I’m actually really interested in what you have to say about the formats.
First up I’ll give you a quick rundown of both the old and new. On the ASP World Tour we have 45 surfers plus three wildcards per event.
The old format was as follows…
Round1: 16 three-man heats with the winner advancing directly in to Round 3 and second and third place moving to Round 2
Round 2: 16 man-on-man heats (from Round 2 all the way to the final we run man-on-man heats)
Round 3: 16 man-on-man heats
Round 4: 8 man-on-man heats
Quarter Finals: 4 man-on-man heats
Semi Final: 2 man-on-man heats
Final: one man-on-man heat
I liked this format because you got to see everyone surf the first day and see who was in form and who to watch out for throughout the event. Some people, including the companies running some of these events, thought the first round was useless because nobody was eliminated. They wanted a change. So the new format was introduced at the Rip Curl Pro Bells Beach and is being run here at Billabong Pro Teahupoo too.
The event still consists of 45 World Tour surfers and three wildcards but the new format goes as follows…
Round 1: 16 man-on-man heats featuring the bottom 29 seeds and wildcards, winners progress to Round 2, second place is eliminated from the event
Round 2: 16 man-on-man heats with round 1 winners taking on the top 16 seeds
Round 3: 8 man-on-man heats.
Quarter Finals: 4 man-on-man heats
Semi Final: 2 man-on-man heats
Final: one man-on-man heat
To be honest at first I sort of liked the idea of the new format because it meant one less day of competition so we weren’t wasting good waves. But after Bells I questioned it because I didn’t get to see the top guys surf enough or see who were the major threats coming through the ranks. This year I have only seen Kelly Slater surf twice in competition and he is the defending Word Champ. Crazy right? It kinda feels as though the first round of this new format is like the trials for the main event. The bottom seeds have slogged it out for a year or more on the World Qualifying Series and have earned their spot on the World Tour so I think it’s only fair we all start in the same round. The only thing we really get out of this new format is that it takes three days to run instead of four. There has to be a better solution.
Anyway, there’s talk going down at the moment and some cool ideas being thrown around in regards to new formats. I want to make sure we get ideas from the spectators too and that’s why I’m asking you for any comments or suggestions today. I will pass on your comments and ideas to the ASP and events sponsors. Thanks a mill! – MF
This year we've only seen Kelly surf a few times because of the new format. © Getty Images
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Golf has it right. Everyone performs a couple of times, those who do best go forward to the final day. Would be good to have 2 days of expression session - style action, or long-duration 8 man heats, with a final day of man-on-man. The main thing is giving all the surfers plenty of time to rip, and the spectators plenty of time to see their heroes.
Tim said on May 16th, 2009 at 6:57 am
Hi Mick,
how about we stick with the new format BUT:
- let the four highest-scoring losers of round 1 also advance to round 2, which would then be 18 heats instead of 16.
- let the two highest-scoring losers of round 2 also advance to round 3, which would then be 9 heats instead of 8.
All in all we would have 3 more heats than right now in the new format -> no additional day needed
Fighting for some good scores until the last minute of the heat, altough being in a combo situation, would be rewarded -> Better heats, more interesting for the viewers
Losing against a top-guy with 15.00 or something and then seeing another guy advance with a score of 3.90 in another heat would be prevented for at least the 4 “best” losers.
Would be kind of a mix between the old and new format. Saftey-net only for the best guys and still only 3 days needed to do a comp.
There would be great other formats with a completely new way of looking at the system, but I think at least for the rest of the season or 2010 the format mentioned above would make sense. And then they should take their time and discuss the whole World Tour / WQS System…
Thanks and good luck in your heat!!!
tobi said on May 16th, 2009 at 7:02 am
I think the ASP should hire a matemathician to solve the problem :D There are too many variables.
Ric said on May 16th, 2009 at 7:21 am
Mick,
Thanks for reaching out to the masses. I’m your run of the mill surf fan with absolutely no competitive experience whatsoever, so I’m chiming in as a total outsider… I too, was excited about the new format. It seemed that there was never enough swell to run an entire contest and too many times we had to sit through wave starved final day of competition. I thought it would be great to see the contests completed during one swell instead of trying to put it together with two separate swell events. I’ve been really disapointed to see both Kelly and Dane sent packing so early, and equally disapointed to see so many members of the top 44 at odds with the new format. While I don’t really believe the format has been given a fair shake yet, I ultimately think that the World Tour surfers should be the ones to make the call.
BTW, whatever happened to Kelly’s format that was tested in the French trials, where two heats are in the water at the same time? I seem to recall that format being very well received.
-Taylor S. Santa Cruz, CA
Taylor S. said on May 16th, 2009 at 7:36 am
Hey Mick…I think maybe something like the F1 qualifiers….everyone has a dig each round and the bottom few get eliminated at the end of each round. That way ALL surfers surf each round and the field is reduced each time. After enough have been eliminated, then maybe have Qtrs, Semis, Final man on man.
Good luck mate.
Tom Jensen said on May 16th, 2009 at 7:40 am
Hey Mick!
As a life long surfer and avid viewer of WCT contests online I can honestly say that I hate the new format. I understand that they want to be able run a comp in three days seeing that usual swell cycle is three days long, but this format is so boring to watch. I want to see the top surfers surf as many heats as possible. And not just that, but I want to see more quality waves ridden too.
It makes since to want to be able to run the contest in the best conditions, but even with the shorter time period needed to finish the contest they are running in crap condition. First in the 1st round at Bells and now in the 2nd round in Tahiti.
Gary said on May 16th, 2009 at 7:42 am
Hey Mick!
As a life long surfer and avid online viewer of both WCT and WQS contests I can honestly say that I hate the new format. I understand the desire to be able to run a contest in the optimum conditions of the waiting period. Three day run time to match the typical three day swell cycle is a great idea, but this format doesn’t work. From what I’ve heard so far from many of the top WCT surfers as well as many surfing enthusiats they similar feelings as mine.
I want to see the top guys surf more heats and more quality waves through out the year. So far with this format new format that is suppose to take advantage of the best conditions hasn’t. They ran in crap conditions in round one of Bells and now in round two in Tahiti. It seems to viewers that the tour is taking a step backwards.
This is why I feel that the Kelly Slater format like has been run at Pipe in the past is the best awnser. The overlapping format is awesome because we get to see more wave ridden and still get to see the top guys more through out the contest. You can finish comps in three days, and with four guys in the water we get to see WAY more set waves ridden. It seems like a win-win situation to me.
Thanks for listening to me ramble on and good on ya for giving us in web a land a voice with the powers at hand!
Later
Gary
Gary said on May 16th, 2009 at 7:58 am
As I was saying earlier on twitter about the new format v. the original format for the ASP World Tour, I much prefer the original. The original format gives more opportunity for surfers who may of had bad surf conditions at least another shot. I do not believe the new format will give competitors the opportunity to all have of feel of the wave conditions if they are automatically seeded into the second round as well as seeing how well the competition is doing in order to adjust their own game plan. I am sure a lot of thought has gone into this new format, with reasons most likely to do with the world economy to eliminate days on each event, but mother nature can change suddenly and extra days may be needed for the best surf, even if past models have indicated that so and so break goes off the best during so and so period of time. All in all the original format keeps competitors at a better peak performance all around because of the length of the event, also the literal mind and emotional toll it can take because of competitions being putting on hold and having to wait for the conditions to improve. Those extra days adds to that aspect.
Surfing is not just a physical sport, if your head is not into the game then you really are just not a true surfer. Bells Beach is not the easiest surfing arena, is constantly changes, once again those extra days are a need. Look at Teahupoo with all the stop and go. The original format will create more development for surfers to show their creative edge to the sport and encourage up and coming surfers something to strive for. Why change something now that has been the same for so long?
On a medical note, by putting the top surfers automatically into the second round, wouldnt that cause an insult to injury from not being able to check out the conditions of the current competition if the surfer can not properly get used to what the ocean has in store for them?
Has the ASP considered what prolonged effects that might ripple into the cash flow if days are eliminated? Spectators like to come out and watch and eliminating those days will be a sad loss for fans. Hell, the television networks that cover surfing events will lose too. The media popularizes these events and keeps surfers, fans of surfing, etc excited. I could go on and on, but its a really touch call to make on which format should be used. It may need to be changed depending on the event since each break is different. There are no two waves alike….
Jenna L Tadlock said on May 16th, 2009 at 8:04 am
From a point of view, especially from a top 45 contestant’s view it probably is appealing, I mean there’s an incentive to do well throughout the year if it means you’ll be seeded better for the event and straight to round 2. (and for reasons mention by you, Mick)
But as a spectator I like seeing all the top guys surf on the first day, I found myself scanning heats on the live webcasts for Bells and hardly watched round 1 at all. So pumped for the top16 in Rnd 2, Dane and Kelly, also Taj gets knocked by guys who had surfed Bells the day before, pumped and dangerous. I mean those guys deserved it, fuck O Wright was ripping….. but I just think the day opener, Round 1 was better with a Bang, when all cats seeded or not, surfed and lit the day up.
in conclusion, the new format is a no go. Round 1 is boring and sometimes it’s luck with waves anyways. The old format provides more entertainment.
hope this helps…
Shin Diesel said on May 16th, 2009 at 8:49 am
To be honest Top 45 is too many surfers..Way too many…
Pro Surfing as it stands has jumped the Shark…
A dead end has been reached, something has got to give…
In the next 5 years..no in the next 3 years internet webcasts and personal tv will surpass all other mediums..
The amount of people who watch pro surfing on the internet worldwide is incredible, so the possibility to develop this for surfing is out of sight…
Did you notice last week that Rupert Murdoch announced moves to introduce payment for content…This is the way it will go and do you as surfers own or have a share in the intellectual rights of surfing’s broadcast????
So I ask you do you own your visual rights like Football players and clubs do as per the Premier league in the UK????
A new format has to be devised to meet the changing market, and you the surfers better be ready to fight for your share when it all comes to a head……It is not feasible to think that surfing will grow any larger than what it is now without change…
You boys better get your thinking caps on or else it will all be owned and controlled by the companies
Shudder, Shudder!!!
Damo said on May 16th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Make the first round a qualifying round like F1, V8’s every one surfs no eliminations highest two waves determines seeding positions but your position in the Qualifiying draw is determined by the previous years draw. Round 1, Now run event as last year 1st goes to round 3, then 2nd & 3rd are then seeded for round 2 on their 2 wave score so it breaks up the field a bit and proceed as man on man might sound funny at first but I think the excitement level for the spectators will be increased and it gives all competitors the added chance to surf under competition condititons twice before round two. Just a thought Mick cheers buddy have a good event..
jeff grasby said on May 16th, 2009 at 10:11 am
When I first heard about the new format I didn’t know what to think. I had no problem with the old format, but wanted to see it in action before I passed judgement. Now that Ive seen it a couple times I have some opinions.
I could sort of understand the idea of having the top 16 jump to round 2 because they have earned it, sort of like the QS system. But I think Mick makes a good point in that these other guys have slogged it out already the year before and deserve the right to start with everyone else. Besides having a low seed is challenging enough as is because the they will draw top seeds.
Compound the new format with the safety system keeping the top 8 seeded throughout the year and you got big issues. Its far too much protection for the top seeds. Giving them an automatic 17th at every event just isnt right. The previous years seeding result factored into this years results is enough protection to keep the top guys seeding high if they perform. I mean if they used the new format at every event and a top seed lost every heat he was in he would still qualify because he would have 17ths across the board. It just doesn’t seem right.
So whats the answer? I dont know, I definitely think the old system works better on many levels.
1) Youre guaranteed to see your favorite surfer at least twice, and thats what we tune in for. The new format pits lower seeded guys against each other and its not exactly what people want to see. No disrespect because everyone rips on tour, but I doubt people were fired up to see Davo v Dunn at chopes in round 1.
2) More exposure for the surfers. The tour guys travel across the world to paddle out for 30 minutes, lose, pack up and go home, and they get no interview, nor any exposure for their sponsors. This cant be good for the companies that back them.
3) shit conditions. Now this new format was supposed to solve this issue but we have yet to see it work. Instead they end up running the first round in shit conditions anyway and sending guys home with after 30 minutes with a 3.5 heat score. Its just not right. The first round in the old format was there to prevent the conditions and an unlucky matchup dictating results. The surfing is what needs to prevail through these contests, not conditions, judging, and luck.
4) fantasy surf websites. I know this sounds silly and the world champ should not be decided upon some fantasy sports site, but the ASPs core audience is comprised of fantasy surfers. These are the people who are dedicated to watching every event, every heat, and knowing every surfer. Without sites like these people wouldn’t know or care who the hell Ben Dunn is, or Bottle, or Heitor, Kling, or Perrow, Powers, etc. The only surfers the audience would care about are guys like, Fanning, Taj, Parko, Kelly, Dane, Jordy. If it wasn’t for fantasysurfer I doubt people would even know who Bede is. So my point is the new format has completely ruined the fantasysurfer.com game and the players are losing interest. And if the core audience loses interest, then the ASP has problems. The ASP needs to cater to the audience, they need to make it exciting for fans, it needs to be presented in a better way that doesn’t include conflicts of interest and suspect judging. Until that happens there will be no main stream exposure and this will hold down prize money.
-
Bootyjuice said on May 16th, 2009 at 10:47 am
I like the new format. The 3 man first round didn’t seem to be taken seriously by the top guys anyway and took way to long.
The only problem is that at Bells and Chopes the first round was held in poor surf which made it a bit of a lottery rather than a test of skill.
What I would like to see is the new format but instead of a top 45 there should only be a top 40 max with the other 5 spots taken up by previous winners and trialists. It would also allow easier integration of the AIs who need a break. It is a blight on our sport that at the elite level we have a surfer that did not win a single heat last year.
I would much rather see in the first round Tom Curren at Bells or Rob Machado at Pipe than number 45.
I don’t like the idea of one tour ranking system however. The QS and CT need to remain different and if you make the CT you deserve to be there for the whole year.
Dave from WA said on May 16th, 2009 at 11:25 am
hi ya mick
thanks for opening this post
the thing i like about the new format, is that every one has to bring their A game to play - no more second chances
you have to turn up with everything pointing in the right direction - equipment, tech, physical and mental - and then deliver under the pump
so ultimately i think that this is going to push the surfers and ultimately surfing to new heights
the thing i dont like is the top 16 seeds being “gifted” into rd2
it makes it like the Australian Netball team - it’s harder to get out of than to get into!
And i dont think that’s pushing the sport when its best surfers are getting a free pass
ultimately the ASP needs to change to a universal ranking system and the current top 45 (and cards) at the time of each event can then fight it out in sudden death format
sorry to be pushing to take away those little WCT luxuries, like a 12 month card, your rd 2 gift and your rd1 second chance - but im keen to see the standard keep rising
thanks for the chance to have a say
keep up the great work and best wishes for the rest of the year
mike
surfsuccess.com
Mike said on May 16th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Mick, chew on this one:
• Round One= 12 four man heats, everyone surfs, top 2 go straight to Round of 36, a.k.a. Round Three.
• Round Two= 6 four man heats, Losers out, Top 2 advance to Round of 36.
• Round Three = 12 three-man heats, 2 advance to Rnd of 24–Round 4.
• Round Four = 8 three-man heats, 2 advance to Rnd of 16.
• Round Five, Quarters, Semis, Finals all Man on Man.
• This is 10 heats shorter than traditional format, but includes non elimination round. Plus, surfers get great chances in round three and four as two of three advance.
• Very fan friendly too, with multiple surfers to watch in several rounds. Speeds up pace of heats.
chris mauro said on May 16th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
To summarize.
Round One: twelve 4-man heats that are non elimination…
Round Two: six 4-man heats with two being eliminated.
Round Three: twelve 3-man heats where top two advance.
Round Four: eight 3-man heats where top two advance.
Round Five: man on man
Quarters: man on man
Semis: man on man
Finals: man on man
chris mauro said on May 16th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
First off get rid of half tour. 20 guys is plenty. Make it 24 with wildcards.
The first 2 rounds each guy gets to surf in two 45 minute 4 man heats. That way we get a chance to see everyone surf a minimum of twice.
Sick of seeing guys only surf once!
Also more guys in the water means more action. These 2 man heats can get boring and alot of good waves go through unridden.
You take a guys best 3-4 waves from the first two rounds to come up with 16 spots for round 3. Round 3 run 4 more 45 minute 4 man heats. The 8 guys with the best 2-3wave total move on to the quarters.
From here on out run 30 minute 2 man heats til the finals. Best 2-3 waves in each heat advances. Final can be 45 minutes.
This event could be run in 2 days giving a better chance for good surf. Each guy will surf way more making it better for everyone watching. The first 3 rounds would be more exciting with most every wave getting ridden. This would be the best way I can see to make sure the best 8 surfers at a spot make it to the final rounds. 2 man heats starting in round 2 is a terrible waste of waves and time. Save the 2 man for the best 8 guys.
kincaid said on May 16th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Why the 4-4-3-3-2-2-2-2 format works for each party:
Surfers– make it out of just one (of two possible) four-man heats and the next two rounds feature three man heats where two advance, so better than 50% chance of moving on, followed by man-on-man heats from round before the quarters on.
Fans– get to watch your favorites multiple times, and stacked heats are exciting!! Much more fast paced, too.
Organizers– Shaves 10 heats off traditional format, so running it in three days is a possibility if conditions demand it.
I call this the 4-3-2-1 format, as the heat sizes shrink until the winner is declared. 4-4-3-3-2-2-2-2-1=winner.
chris mauro said on May 16th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
The sport really needs to be made palatable for TV, cut it down and create a greater degree of pressure to ensure the action is premium.
But hold on, we’re talking about surfing. Tides, swells and winds affect comps. Geez, I dunno, Kelly can win most heats but if he is on the wrong end the waves he’s out and can’t perform regardless of his talent.
Fanno, its the same for you. No waves = no chance to perform
Benno said on May 17th, 2009 at 12:43 am
Hey everyone! Great to hear your feedback on the new formats and love the ideas you’re presenting. I have read everyone’s messages and I will pass them on to the Events, ASP and the Surfers. Wow, now my brain is working overtime. If there are more ideas I would love to hear them. It’s great to hear your comments because you are the people we’re selling too. If you don’t like it then it must change. Thanks again and keep the ideas coming – MF
Mick Fanning said on May 17th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Mick,
Since you are on the tour is there a general agreement or disagreement or mixed feelings about the new format from the other guys? I think what it will come down to in the end is this the best fit format for the tour and probably for the executives if there is profitibility from it (aka fan support and surf community).
I’m trying to imagine a bunch of surfers in a board meeting discussing formats in some boardies and flops and no shirt but with a tie…now that would be a great photo!
All the best,
Jenna
Jenna Tadlock said on May 17th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Hi Mick,
I do not play fantasy surf and was not aware that it was “the core” audience for webcast, as stated by someone above…who knew? And I do not have some well thought out plan for how the comps should be run. I Do know this, I want to see my favorite guys surf as much as possible. Some of my favorites are not the top guys…I’ve been holding my breath waiting to see Taylor Knox surf for the last few days…He is local boy and I’ve been following his career since I was a little girl. And of course I have my top favs. But I like to see everyone surf at least twice, can’t believe Dane is out in the first round. I watch for the pure pleasure,love of the sport and the occasional goose bumps.
Shawna said on May 17th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
The general feeling I am getting from the guys on tour is that they don’t like it. But this is the ones who speak up some don’t.
And look everyone has their favourites even if they arent the top guyus that is why we try a cater for everyone not just the top guys.
Keep them coming
MF
Mick Fanning said on May 18th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
Hey Mick,
I really hate the new format. I believe for the fans the Kelly format is the best. You see way more quality waves ridden, with very progressive surfing especially by the surfers without priority. Also the first round non-elimination is great because the surfers really go for broke with over the top progressive surfing because they have nothing to lose.
Whereas with the New format, it is very stale. Surfers are just doing what they have to make it thru the heat. It is slowing the progression of competitive surfing. The new format has to go away, bring on the Slater format for all of us.
J said on May 19th, 2009 at 5:09 am
Pro Surfing as it stands has jumped the Shark…
Ha Ha. Good call Damo…Go The Fonz
Adam said on May 20th, 2009 at 9:07 am